IMPORTANT: Regarding the game's timeline system + Helper mods wanted!

[cosmods]

Greetings Gems,

There has been an ongoing issue for quite some time now regarding Cosmographia's timeline and the system of dating posts, mainly that there are many players who do not understand how the system works or just barely understand how it works enough to get by. While other DWRP games such as Court, Kyriakos, and Aather have used this system, we have numerous players saying it's very unorthodox and that they dislike it.

There have also been concerns brought up over players being unsure how in-game days relate to actual dates - for example, is Day 118 also September 12th? The answer is no, the game exists on its own separate calendar, though one that currently isn't established anywhere as we've begun to see the problems with that when players want to know what calendar day or month it is in-game.

So we are now asking for input from the playerbase regarding these things, mainly:
-Should an IC calendar be established for player reference that connects the in-game days to actual dates?
-Should the game's timeline/post dating/IC:OOC day ratio system be modified or changed altogether?

Feel free to leave a comment with your opinions as well! Thank you!!

Also, we are now looking for some helper mods to assist with certain duties, particularly when our current mods are occupied with real life or other commitments! If you'd like to offer your services as a helper mod, please contact Freya, ToraNova or Gena! Our contact information is over at the mod contact page! Thank you once again!

Poll #16977

Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 45

View Respondents

Do you understand the game's timeline system? Should it be changed or modified? Should an IC calendar be established?

View Answers

I don't understand the game's timeline system and want it changed.
0 (0.0%)

I understand the game's timeline system and don't want it changed.
2 (4.4%)

I understand the game's timeline system but would prefer a different/altered system.
2 (4.4%)

I would be in favor of establishing an IC calendar but not changing/modifying the timeline system.
15 (33.3%)

I would be in favor of establishing an IC calendar as well as changing/modifying the timeline system.
21 (46.7%)

I have no opinion on the game's timeline system or an IC calendar.
5 (11.1%)

Comments

[strawberry_roll]

An IC calendar would be nice, especially with how many holidays are approaching...

That said, I actually like the timeline system? Like, there's time passing, but it doesn't feel like it's going by TOO quickly. It's flexible.

[phoenix_temple]

So I have no idea why there are so many answers and honestly the answers seem complicated for the question, but I want to put it out there that I think I voted for "make the dates the same as the rl calendar for ease" because that's what Gena told me I could assume last month because a date passed that was important to my character.

Like unless someone is going to go into google docs and/or make up a table to put the actual dates for the game on it's the easiest way to figure out the weather (based on time of year), mark important IC dates and figure out stuff that 90% of RPers love to deal with including birthdays and holidays. I should also note it would make it easier for us to do stuff like figure out patterns in new characters showing up?

[cosmods]

The problem with "make the dates the same as the RL calendar" is the game's IC:OOC day ratio is not 1:1 and is instead flexible (days basically pass at the playerbase's discretion). IC dates could only be the same as RL dates if we changed the system to a 1:1 IC:OOC day ratio. The second part of your comment is essentially what the IC calendar would be though!

[phoenix_temple]

... You asked for player input and I gave it to you, so I would greatly appreciate not getting the response "the problem with your input we asked you to give is..." Because that's mine and I like organization and planning and I understand why people like flexibility, but I personally like to know what the heck is going on on any given date, including the. actual date.

But I don't understand the answers on the poll because they're excessively complicated and that's why I was clarifying my vote.

[cosmods]

It wasn't meant to be stated as a problem with your input. Changing the IC:OOC day ratio to 1:1 is an option! I thought you meant with the game's current system. If that isn't what you meant sorry for misunderstanding!

[hasmovedon]

I like the idea of an IC calendar, and using the flexible timeline system with actual dates. So, say it's September 12th in game now. People could do the same thing as they do now, posting at different times on the 12th for as long as they want until someone makes a post on the 13th. That way there's still the flexibility that many people like, while also having concrete dates for people who'd like to know them. It would also get rid of some clutter by eliminating the need to tag for a range of dates.

[finished]

Break this into multiple questions next time please. You have three questions there and one giant bucket of answers for all of them, and it made it hard to parse through and find my answer.

While the current system is a good fallback option for timeline corrections, it's causing confusion and pacing problems by having the primary method of choosing an IC date be "idk whatever works best for you". Establish a calendar and make it the first choice for picking a date, please.

Furthermore, I'm in strong favor of the dates being a 1 to 1 IC match to the OOC dates, because I play a goshdarn Nintendo Cupid and I'd rather do Valentine's shenanigans with that in February.

[hasmovedon]

+1 to IC dates matching OOC dates as close as possible. This game seems to move more or less at a 1:1 ratio anyway even with the flexible timeline so while I think a flexible timeline with dates would be best to please everyone, it's the least confusing option to just have the dates match IC and OOC. As was pointed out above, it's easiest for holidays, figuring out the weather, and dates important to the character.

[soulfultwin]

Seconding this as well.

It's by far the easiest solution that wouldn't involve any type of needless micromanaging and it still allows players the freedom to forward date/back date posts as necessary, since that's a thing that we already do.

Honestly, having to look up what day everyone else is on when trying to make a post is kind of a complete mess, when all I need to say is 'THIS IS HAPPENING ON SEPTEMBER 12' and then that's it. Done deal.

[hasmovedon]

Yeah see that's what I don't get. You can just forward or back date if you have to have something happen on a particular day. Otherwise most posts don't need to happen on a particular day when they're SOL posts and can just happen on whatever date it is currently.

[soulfultwin]

I just feel like the day system is kind of...needlessly tacked on. I mean, it can be useful when you want to see how long your character's been in the game but...in the end it just feels like a superfluous thing to track when we can just as easily go by the actual calendar.

I generally look at the days of other posts just to keep a slight sense of continuity in my own head, which would be easier with concrete dates.

[hasmovedon]

Yeah pretty much. It's an interesting idea for an IC time system but it seems like needless complication to something that could be way easier and clearer.

[soulfultwin]

Yes, exactly!

The game's starting to get pretty populated, which is a great thing! I love seeing more people and characters, and with an influx of people it's very easy for things to get overcomplicated.

That's why I think just matching the game to our current day/calendar in a 1:1 ratio would be the most efficient.

[cosmods]

Sorry about that, I sort of didn't realize how unnecessary the first couple answers that don't relate to the IC calendar really were until after I made the post;;; I guess I thought there might be people who have opinions about the timeline system but not the calendar. Will narrow things down better next time!

[finished]

You missed the point of what I said.

You have three questions crammed together with one answer set.

I checked -- DW lets you put more than one question in a poll. If you want to get nitty gritty details, do us a favor and split up the questions.

[cosmods]

I never made a poll on DW before so I wasn't aware of this. Thanks for letting me know for the future!

[stuckinamoment]

Dittoing this and the comments on it. It's really hard as the system is now to plan posts, especially if you want to do something with specific things like holidays, seasons and, you know, dates.

The current system is flexible, yes, but unless you've seen it so many times (such as in those other games you mentioned, of which I only vaguely recognize one) it's totally different to what you have experience with, which is a day that takes one day. Even a 2:1 ratio you can imagine easily, as it's just spreading out your normal day.

[dennishopper]

Regardless of whether the ratio stays 3:1 or not, I am absolutely in favor of creating an IC calendar. It effectively allows for a more organized place to put player plots, and it could also serve as a place to put minor mod notes a well. (i.e. holidays that don't need major events + weather.)

I think a lot of players have come to constantly assume that Waverly Bay as a setting reflects the canon weather of Beach City - which is to say that it's sunny about 80% of the time. Maybe tack the occasional change of weather on the calendar? Like if there's gonna be snowfall or something on Day 189, just post that in advance so players can plan ahead.

There's a lot of purposes that an IC calendar could serve, and while I hold no real opinion on the current dating system, we can only benefit from having an active calendar.

[hasmovedon]

My impression was that there wasn't a ratio at all? The FAQ seems to imply there isn't.

[dennishopper]

Huh. I was sort of under the impression that 3:1 was the official ratio, but that might have been my mistake.

[soft_focus]

Yea nah there is no ratio at all right now, that's why there is an option to change the system with or without a calendar

Because right now the system is basically just we move to the next day As We Feel

[miasmajesty]

this is loosely related, but i think the game may have grown to a size and activity level where we may need a calendar to mark events. The OOC comm is great and active but because it's great an active, a lot of planning posts for events get lost and it's really hard as a player to know what's happening / when it's safe to do a chill thing when there are a bunch of intense things going on at once.

As for the timeline system itself, I think changing it might be a good idea -- but still allowing for the flexibility of people doing whatever they want whenever they want. It's essentially the same thing in the long run, since i think a lot of people were assuming that was how it was.

[dennishopper]

As said above, I absolutely agree with the notion of a calendar. We haven't really been tagging events/planning posts or well...anything, so it's very difficult to find that sort of thing at all in the OOC comm, especially when we also treat it as a spam comm and post memes and whatnot in there as well. It's a habit we should work to change, but that's besides the point, really.

I actually went and found code for a decent-looking calendar. just because of this discussion.

[cyan_maid]

As far as the passage of time goes, I think we're in a pretty good pace right now with how it's been, but for a calendar, I say that's a good thing to have. It's something I know I've used as a reference in games I've played at in the past and I can't be the only one. Even though I'm not, like, a graphics person, is there a way I can help out with it if you guys need help?

[no_refunds]

I am also in favor of the time ratio being 1:1! Our player base is surprisingly fast-paced. And as mentioned before, it's not going to cause as many problems when it comes time for holidays, important dates, etc.

That said, I think we could still have some time flexibility! It's useful, I mostly see back-dates and forward-dates used in order to get around important events. I also think we should keep the numbered system that we currently have, combined with the actual date. So maybe posts could be dated like this?:

WHEN: Day 118, Sep 12th

I'm not sure if that would make things more confusing or not, but I think it would be helpful. The ten-day numbering system makes it a lot easier for me to find important events that happened. It's good for organizational purposes!


I also agree that a calendar page would be great, especially for keeping track of player AND mod-run events! My only problem is that we don't have a whole lot of moderating man-power right now. To be honest, the three of us have been pretty overloaded with other responsibilities and duties in our lives lately. It's been a struggle to get the game running as smoothly as we want to, so we could definitely use some help.

[finished]

This would be a massive improvement! Also, I do agree that the one good thing about this system is having buckets to collect posts into and figure out roughly how far apart they're spaced.

[hasmovedon]

That looks like a good compromise to me! A 1:1 ratio with both numbers and dates so it's very clear to everyone what date it is and when things are happening. Backdates and forward dates can be used like they are in every game ever to have posts on a specific date as needed. Seems simple enough!

[periodicpurse]

I am so totally down with this, honestly. Having both an IC day and date would satisfy both parties since we still seem to be running on a 1:1 ratio as it is right now.

[magistermentium]

Yaknow what, I may have the tagging speed of molasses but I'm in favor of this as well! Since as you mentioned Gena, even though I'm slow most of the game's players are quite the opposite. And this way we won't have to worry about the game actually going faster than a rate of 1:1 either, which is something that's happened before. Lynsey did the math below, there were 3 instances accounted for where a period of 6 days OOC was 8 days IC. I'm in favor of tying the day count to the RL calendar and setting up a calendar page for tracking events and player plots too!

Agreed that some extra help would seriously be great also... Especially since I always feel a little nervous reviewing apps for canons I'm not familiar with. I'm really glad the game's Yu-Gi-Oh cast has come to me about players from their canon they've seen on the test drive who were OOC, otherwise I would've had no idea if/when they actually submitted apps. This actually lead to a very minor issue recently but luckily we got it resolved very, VERY quickly to the point where probably only a small amount of people knew there was an issue at all. Still, I'd like not to risk that happening again. Having more helper mods would assist a lot with that alone, since there's sooooo many canons I'm clueless about.... almost anything live-action and majority of anime, for instance.

[xyzknight]

Yeah, with all due respect, the "days are whenever you want" thing makes it... really really hard to actually follow when something happens. Since I don't keep a thread tracker for various reasons, that means I have to constantly go research what day something specifically happened on, then check if the post that's up before or after that... for about pretty much every important thing.

Just because we have it IC:OOC in terms of days doesn't mean there can't be backdating, obviously... which means that honestly I can't see any reason to keep the way things are currently. It's actually one of the reasons that I don't tag out all that much at times -- it's just too confusing and annoying to try to keep track of what day is when, so I'd rather hold off on tagging and wait until a whole lot of days pass to avoid that confusion.

If the calendar matched our real life days, though, that would basically solve all those problems, so...

And to be truthful, not modifying the timeline system but trying to set up an IC calendar would actually make it even worse than it is now, because that doesn't solve the issue of tracking days... seeing as instead of just going by the real life ones, I'd now have to memorize a completely different calendar and however it actually ran.

So... yeah. Please, please, please please please just make it IC:OOC for days/calendar.

[foolreversed]

Okay I am going to be completely honest here, and say what I feel needs to be said. (I hope none of it comes off too harsh)

I understand the current system (now, after having to have it explained to me months ago) but I believe it is really bad, awful even, as well as counter intuitive and needs to be put out with the trash. There's not a single thing I like about it and honestly the only benefit I see from it is its place in the tagging system (which... idk anymore if that was an intentional thought behind it...?) But even that feels like it will eventually not be worth it, and it is still massively outweighed by all the cons. As it is right now, it's just a clusterfuck in the making.

Just because it worked for other games does not mean it will work for this one. I have actually never even heard of two of those games and the one I did hear of, it was not exactly positive. Additionally, I think it's kinda gross to see the head mod hear these concerns and go "WELL IT WORKS IN THESE OTHER GAMES". It doesn't matter how well it works in another game, it is very clearly not working in this game. People have been confused about this for ages, the number of posts lately that just say "WHATEVER DAY TODAY IS" on the "when" is staggering. This whole thing just keeps coming up again and again. It's frustrating and I doubt it will ever be less so unless it's just gone and done with.

I feel an IC calendar would be great but I did not vote for an option with it because honestly? I'm not sure I have faith in one actually being maintained and up the date. I know the mod team lately have been very diligent with the organizational upkeep behind the scenes but I think it's really telling that there hasn't already been an established in game calendar. Like why wasn't there? Why don't we know what date it is in game? That is such a huge oversight, it really concerns me. On top of that there is also how "hands off" a lot of this game feels, mod-wise. The way we do AC. The fact that player plots don't have to be mod approved and the player plot page is just open season (which is a whole other can of worms). The day cycle itself even in a way (since it puts the onus on players to keep track of the days). It just leaves me feeling like it might be better for both players AND mods to just... not bother and just go straight to a 1:1 ratio, no calendars? Ultimately a calendar is still a good idea, but I'm just... left with uncertainties with how to pull it off.

Additionally... I know that I tried to make a calendar for this game - found code for one, did it all up and presented it to a mod to share with another mod because plurk is dumb and wouldn't let me pp both around the time of the crystal flower event. Granted, at the time I misunderstood how the day cycle worked (because the... description back then was seriously not the least bit clear at all, I reread it multiple times since I joined to doublecheck that I had things right and just... ughhh) but I was told "we might still use a calendar!" and then... well, didn't really see an IC calendar idea come up again until now! I don't mind not being asked for the code I used because, like I said, I had the whole thing wrong anyway so whoops, my bad, of course it wasn't usable. But my point is this is not the first time this has been suggested and it took us months to get to it again... why?


One last thing... I think this game seriously needs some sort of annual general feedback post. A "How's the Game?" every so often, just to hear opinions and concerns and have them discussed in an open space where everyone can weigh in and participate. The mod email does not work for this purpose, nor does plurk. This shouldn't have had to come up in a plurk just for it to finally be brought to a player poll (which... ok seriously everyone saying this poll is needlessly complicated is 100% right wtf). I have heard a LOT of extremely valid complaints and criticisms about the way the game is run both on plurk and in private conversations and I worry that this will eventually do the game a lot of harm. I love this game a lot and do not want that, so please consider one in the future so that these concerns can be brought to the forefront sooner rather than later like the day cycle issue.

[blindfoldcode]

I'm actually in super agreement to the feedback post. (And I'll be clear, I'm not advocating an HMD. That's not what I want.) I think maybe an unscreened, anon-enabled post on the mod journal would be helpful in that aspect? Because I know the calendar thing has come up privately for me as well, with one of my characters having a connection with August 15th and needing to know the date.

There's not a lot of transparent ways to get in contact with the mods, so I know I've personally felt kind of alone on some things I wanted to talk about until recently when it came up in personal conversations. So a lot of people could be feeling the exact same frustration and think they're the only ones feeling it and not bring it up for that reason? And a lot of things I've seen others say, too, are really, really valid concerns about things like the weather situation and the calendar.

And I get the hands-off idea working! In some aspects it does. But in other aspects it's gone horrifyingly out of control (we wiped the actual threat of death p much off the map in July). I'm glad the team is going to expand, but I also think the game is a lot bigger than it can be and still function well under the initial rules.

Also AC freezes my computer every time I try to access it.

[torya]

+100 to this since it basically expresses all my concerns way more eloquently than I could, especially re: mod presence and player feedback about the game.

[foolreversed]

Also because I am awake at crazy people hour I got curious because the last month felt like it went... waaaay faster than usual so I actually checked the dates on posts this past month.

In total for all of August, the first post dating day 76 and the last post dating day 108, August had a total of 32 days... in a month of 31 days. Which may seem like nothing but one of the things I read someone expressing in favor of the current system was that it doesn't leave them having to explain why their characters aren't around for a while which... no this current system doesn't actually provide you that luxury anymore with its current clip (also I actually had to figure out reasons why my character wasn't around for long periods of time even when it was slower anyway...?)

Anyway I broke it down further into weeks, using what the first and last posts of a 7 day period starting from August 1st. I ignored posts that were not labeled as forward or back dated, so that's why a few are a bit weird, but I felt that was the best to illustrate this.

1st to 7th: Day 76 - 81. Total 5 days.
8th to 14th: Day 84 - 88. Total 4 days.
15th to 21st: Day 90 - 98. Total 8 days.
22nd to 28th: Day 96 - 104. Total 8 days.
29th to Sept 4th: Day 104 - 112. Total 8 days.

Additionally there are a lot of days that are outright skipped and lost. Either way the game is moving a little too fast and honestly? That is the fault of this system being hard to follow and keep track of (not players). This is recent yeah, and it's started to slow down a bit (September started on 108 and the latest post is dated 119, so that's 11 days by the time of September 12th) but still. It could jump ahead at any point.

Just wanted to put these into actual numbers so people can see because I don't think people think about this specifically too often.


edit: also adding, the game opened in April.... and took to August to reach day 76. (so it would have made it to June ICly if this had been established as a calendar... rn we are probably in July) So things have clearly changed but my point is I don't think it's going to slow down again like it was before and I think something should really be done before it's out of control.

[unit31]

don't wanna repeat points too much since lynsey p. much covered it so uh

tbh I'm all in favour of just having the days correspond with OOC dates. This day system was horribly confusing and frustrating for me in Court and it still is now! I honestly really have no idea what I'm doing with it and I don't. Really see why we need to have it, if we're excluding OOC dates.

It muddies the timeline both OOCly and ICly because with holiday events and the like coming up, people are going to want to play them out - but we have no idea what dates correspond to what days in Cosmo and I can really see it turn into a huge confusing mess.

[kuukai]

The only thing I need to know is what time of year it is so that I know when Kyouko goes into hibernation.

Other than that, I have no problem with the current system.